S2: E02 - Recognising and Tackling Quiet Quitting

Péter: Welcome, Jeremy.

This is The Retrospective.

Jeremy: Hey , Peter.

Okay this is season

two, episode two really the beginning of season two this

is our new improved format.

We're going to really try for 20, 30 minutes, really actionable

diving in on a single topic, and we'll see where we go from there.

Péter: Welcome, every listener.

And let's jump right into it.

What is today's topic?

Jeremy: Well,

probably not the most favorite topic for most managers but quiet quitting.

I think it's quite a topical one.

I think there's a lot of organizations experiencing that and we wanted to

dive, dive right in and, and tackle it.

Péter: Indeed.

Yeah.

What would you say for someone who, you He's not familiar

with the term quiet quitting.

What are the signs that when you see in someone on your team, you would categorize

it as more or less quiet quitting?

Jeremy: Yeah, so quiet quitting is really where, someone essentially

gives up in, in work and they're doing the bare minimum to get by.

And I think that you can really see it in a few signs that basically fairly

obvious, but a reduction in their productivity, just producing less.

The quality of their work is dropping and we can dive into it more, but

they're in their engagement level is dialed back significantly in the team.

Yeah.

Actually in planning this, I think we, we described this it's all proactivity

of the person disappears completely.

Péter: Exactly.

Jeremy: And I think that's like the core of it.

Yeah.

There's other signs of engagement where you have things like negativity

that starts to creep into every conversation , in some cases it could

be participating in a lot of gossip around the coffee machine or in the bar.

And the last one.

Which is really a lot of unexplained absences.

You know, people just not there during the day.

Whether that's through things they'd say, I'm away, or you start to

really see that they're not there.

But yeah and all of those separately might point to other things, but really

when you start to see all of that happening together, I think that's where

you really can say that this person.

Maybe they're in this category of quiet quitting.

Péter: Yeah.

I think that covers it pretty well.

Another thing we talked about when preparing is to simplify

quiet quitting is a loss of motivation in, in a very short way.

Yeah, and that can manifest in all the ways you said.

It's interesting you said that all of this should be there to a point to have it.

I saw it in the sense when actually the output of the person didn't degrade that

much, but their engagement and their motivation and the proactivity, and

there were topics that were important for this person, that they were

arguing on meetings to do it their way.

And it was just like a drop and they were like, yeah, whatever, just

tell me what to do and I will do it.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And I think that's really important to diagnose also, when you see some

of these things, there's no like hard and fast in this, and we're going

to come on to that and how to tackle it, how to diagnose it and so on.

But there are some kind of scenarios, I would say there are some patterns

and company situations that in particular cause this to happen.

In my own case I've seen this multiple times when you have a significant

change in senior leadership in an organization, which radically changes

the culture of the organization.

And people who were highly engaged become extremely disengaged and I think

like partly what we're seeing also in the market today is there's less jobs.

So in some cases in tech where we've had great jobs and great

salaries, many of those scenarios, people would just leave the company

and you'd have a lot of quitting.

But for whatever reason, there might be factors now in the

climate where that's less the case.

Another scenario I've seen is when I worked at Traveldoo we had a

significant period of uncertainty about the future of the company.

And we could really see that there was something going on.

We didn't know.

And and then the, it was finally announced to the staff that there was a decision

around actually ending the company.

And then the decision to end the company was reversed at the last minute.

And then put back on the table months later.

And you can imagine all the uncertainty and everything else.

And then finally, obviously the company was shut down.

And in that shutdown period from when even it was announced, it has still,

it was still business as usual until.

Like a phased shutdown of the entire business.

So you can obviously see that quiet quitting is something that

could almost be natural in that.

Péter: In this situation.

Yeah that's a very good example.

One I have in my experience is when at Gawker, I was the site

lead for the Hungarian office.

And when the company was going through a bankruptcy process and looking for

new investors and an acquisition.

That's also a typical case when people are just giving up and quiet quitting.

But it can also be the impact of a, the secondary impact of a layoff, for example.

Shutting down a product wing making some unpopular product decisions that

can result in this or tech decisions in the buy versus build, for example.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah.

Usually, what we're describing is scenarios that are often outside of

the control of a manager, but that have a wide impact in the organization.

I've seen that also in startups.

Startups are quite volatile.

They don't all succeed.

And in one case we had to lay off more than 30 percent of the company.

That was really brutal for people leaving.

It was brutal for people who were staying.

And that we lost basically all the executive leadership in that same phase

to secure the future of that company.

But at the same time, the collateral damage of that has, is where

you have a number of people.

Who just silently go and check out and do the bare minimum.

Péter: Yeah.

Okay.

So we talked about the signs talked about there is actually one more thing I would

like to mention that when you see quiet quitting in your team, it might not be

about the company may, maybe there are some personal reasons, maybe something

is going on in the life of the person.

So be very aware of your own internal assumptions and biases and don't

assume that what you're seeing is quiet quitting, maybe there's another reason

. Jeremy: Yeah, and we're going to get to that about how to diagnose

it with the person and so on.

We talked about, you talked about earlier and you said, quiet quitting

is really like a lack of motivation.

Péter: Yeah, too oversimplified.

Jeremy: Yeah, and I think it's useful to introduce a concept that

we talk about all the time well, do you want to talk about Dan Pink

Péter: sure just very shortly I recommend everyone and maybe we

can put it in the show notes this there is a great explanatory video.

Daniel Pink, he writes about about what motivates us in his book, Drive.

And contrary to what people would think in most jobs, especially creative jobs

that use the brain and not physical force, the three things that motivate

people are autonomy, mastery, and purpose.

Personally, I use this framework often when diagnosing quiet quitting and loss

of motivation, but also when, and we will talk about it later, how to impact the

motivation and bring back the person.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And we can really see in the scenario as we described the symptoms of quiet

quitting and, the scenarios of these companies, the purpose of the company

can be changed radically overnight.

Yes.

And there's these, there's the outside things and that when you burst the

bubble, the kind of the bubble of a purpose of why you maybe you're at the

company or what it does or the impact you have like when I talked about where

business is going to be shut down.

When you start to lose purpose, that's where your motivation

can really hit your limits.

Péter: But similarly, there are cases in, in maybe in some of our examples

is when, A team or a person loses their autonomy because there is a micromanaging

leadership or Decisions are made not necessarily based on technical input,

but from outside circumstances financial or whatever And they feel like they

don't have the autonomy anymore or not that level that they were used to

Jeremy: exactly You talked about a radical product decision overruling for example.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: So as a manager, you only have there's only so much of this that

you can that you can really control.

And we're going to talk about what you can control and how you can address it.

One of the other things that we wanted to say here was that

obviously in the remote context,

Péter: Very important yeah.

Jeremy: This is even harder sometimes to diagnose because when we were

prepping for this, you said You know, suddenly you might have someone who

just switches off all their, the camera in the, in the team calls.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's harder to detect that kind of checking out.

Péter: Yeah the absenteeism is much less obvious in a distributed setting.

Yeah.

But this can pop up in an office setting also, like the person

starts to arrive later to work and yeah, take longer lunch breaks.

Longer lunch breaks.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Not someone I worked with, but someone that was a friend of mine

there were much more boozy lunches between him and his colleagues.

Wow, yeah.

That was in France, right?

No, in the UK.

Oh, okay.

Interesting.

Do you want to talk a little bit about cultural differences and some

of the other nuances to this, Peter?

Péter: Yeah, that's an important aspect that we identified.

That, that.

Oftentimes what contributes to quiet quitting is that the person

in an ideal scenario or in a vacuum, they would quit their job

because they lost their motivation.

They don't get the learnings or whatever reasons, but there is

something almost external reasons that keep them at the company.

And this is where, for example, in, in European countries like France, where

there is a very good labor help for.

For employees financially it makes sense for them to stay longer and

wait till they get fired because they get better help from the state.

Or if they have especially U.

S.

startups, they have stock options that they need to wait a certain

time before they can exercise them.

And then, so.

All these, I don't know, golden hand locks that, that, that make them make you stay.

Similarly, or in the U.

S.

for example, if you have dependence on a health care plan

that the company is providing.

All this stuff are creating a very dangerous situation because internally the

person would move away, but these external circumstances, financial considerations,

They make them stay at the company and this can make someone really bitter and.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I saw that very hard for people to be motivated and Traveldoo when

you know the company could end.

And at the same time, you know that with the state protection that you have, there

could be quite a good quite a good payout.

Péter: Yeah.

But also with I, I seen it with with U.

S.

mother company that if there are people on an L1 visa, for example,

they are tied to the company.

If they leave the company, they leave, need to leave the country that's a

very difficult situation to be in.

Jeremy: Yeah, that's a good point.

And I've seen that actually even in here in France as well.

I think the other thing that's, we are now in a climate, we mentioned this

earlier, where there are less jobs, and we're seeing a wave of change in

companies where, your company may have changed significantly in terms of its

culture, deep focus on execution numbers.

And that's the only thing that matters above all else.

Layoff and every layoffs and all sorts of other things.

And then at the same time you look outside and you see the

same thing everywhere else.

Yeah.

And so you're like, okay I'm not going to give as much

here because I'm less engaged.

But then again there's not that many jobs and I'm, and it's

going to be the same anyway.

So why change?

Péter: Yeah.

Or I'm just afraid that I'm not going to find something that's going to be as good

as what I have now, even if it sucks.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah.

So, Peter, what are the consequences, yeah

Péter: Let's move on to the next step.

And why is it bad that somebody is just bringing the expected minimum?

And what are the negative consequences of quiet quitting?

So when we were preparing, we selected different groups

starting from the individual.

You can see that this kind of mindset results in less productivity,

less work done, lower quality.

Of the work being done really just checking the minimum and but the real

danger what I found is beyond the individual because this kind of behavior

is really viral it infects others and it can have a very concrete negative

impact on the team team moral team productivity communication I would

even say, yeah the morale is probably the worst and most significant part.

Jeremy: Yeah, especially when, we talk about the negative behavior

that they also bring with that.

Péter: Exactly.

Jeremy: The sniping, the comments, maybe the gossip, the

Péter: Yeah, the cynicism.

Jeremy: The checked out, you know, the undermining and,

and it feeds, it's like a, it's like a vortex.

Péter: And it's a nice connection to the other impact of quiet

quitting on someone on your team.

Is on you on the engineering manager because a part of An engineering

manager's job is to be positive.

Not i'm not don't mean the US fake Positivism, but just you know motivate

the team be positive So the good side of everything rally folks around

you and lead and it's really hard if someone especially if they are

key players Like a staff engineer or someone You is dragging you down.

It's it takes a lot of mental energy away from day to day

. Jeremy: And the worst is you don't spend that time and energy

on anyone else in the team.

Péter: Exactly

Jeremy: So it's like a compounding problem that you also that you have right?

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: And I know that you had have an I don't know how much you want to talk about

it But you've had an experience where in this scenario you then end up taking You

An action that you may not like fully feel happy about in the future because you

Péter: Yeah, that's a good point's point.

Yeah.

I guess I can talk about it without names.

So there, there, there was a case in my experience where the negativity

of the person and the cynicism and how they were spreading it.

Just basically I had a very emotional response to that and I, in a few weeks

I worked on firing the person without.

without giving them better support and understanding really what's going on and

and helping them overcome this phase.

Maybe it would have resulted also in a termination, but at least I would have

given all the chances to the person.

So

Jeremy: yeah.

Péter: Yeah, that was a good learning for me.

Jeremy: Yeah.

We all live and learn from this.

Yeah, exactly.

We've got the scars.

Péter: But to connect back to the point, the impact is very real on the engineering

manager, and it's sometimes very hard to detect that you get emotional.

And when you need all your energy in the morning to get

up, it's impacting you also.

And you want to be positive and then There comes this guy again

with this cynic, negative remarks and you just react emotionally.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And I think like the, this quiet quitting behavior is really amplified

in geeks because geeks are already cynical and negative in a way.

Stereotypically.

Stereotypically, but you really see that and then, and they're very

abrupt and direct and whatever.

And then you have that.

So it's really.

Definitely.

Yeah.

And It's not just the team and the manager, it's the org.

Péter: And that's the the widest impact of quiet quitting is, there

is if the person is responsible for communication with other departments

and functions, and arguably everyone is responsible for that to some extent,

Those discussions, those communications are great a lot if this person is lost

is their engagement and motivation.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's it's really the blast radius as well beyond the team.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Péter: Yeah.

It can even get to customers if it's a customer facing role.

Definitely.

Jeremy: Oh yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

We talked about this, but like, how do we deal with this Peter?

You know what?

What can we do as a manager?

Péter: That's the million dollar question, right?

That's why people are still listening to us to finally get to the point.

I think before getting to that, the last thing is, I think you need to

realize that you need to take action.

Like it's, the problem is not going to solve itself just by ignoring

those cynical remarks or getting a little easy on the person, not paying

attention that their code is a bit taking a long time or degrading or etc.

It's not, it's just going to increase the problem.

So I think it's important that you need to pay attention to it

and you need to take actions.

It's also, and let's start to get into the elephant in the room or the steps.

One more thing I wanted to take that can connect here is that don't over index,

don't let Occupy all your thoughts because as you mentioned earlier,

there's a big risk of losing attention for the good performers, for the high

performers, those who are pulling even more of their weight because of

because of someone who's quiet quitting.

So focus on the person, but don't let all your focus.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think quiet quitting is really like a cancer and it needs to be

taken out of the body, you know?

Péter: Yeah, I like that.

Wow.

It's a bit brutal, but

Jeremy: I don't mean it in the sense that doesn't mean that we're not

the person, but the behavior, and it might be either that behavior has to

change or the person has to leave.

Péter: Yeah.

And that's how I would sum it also.

Yeah.

And let's get into this, these two options, maybe like when

we say the behavior needs to change, it's nothing magic.

We just really need to keep this expected level of performance in force.

Yeah.

Even in hard times and it's not easy because if a company is going through

a true turbulent time half the team was laid off and you think you Your staff

engineer is irreplaceable and you really need it by at all costs But if the person

is quiet quitting at the same time You really need to have an honest conversation

with them and still hold them up to the same standards because first, this is how

they can perform, this is what we expect.

But then, your actions are showing what you can get away with at the company.

If people in the team see that, I I don't know, Joe can get by with less work,

just because he's a staff engineer, then they are at risk of quiet quitting.

Jeremy: Yeah, exactly.

And I think that's great.

Performance culture is super important.

Knowing what good looks like, everyone understanding that, and

providing strong feedback, and having a plan, and all the rest.

Péter: Yeah, let's go through this in detail.

To be very concrete, I advise, just really, it sounds trivial,

but talking to the person.

It's good to understand their side of the story.

There is this SBI framework, the Situation Behavior Impact framework,

Where that's a very good, very objective, very distanced way of giving

feedback on some of their behavior.

And this is how I would start a discussion like this.

Collecting a few examples, explaining what was their behavior, as opposed to

what I would expect from them, and the impact their negative behavior had on

the team or the project or something.

It's really hard to debate that.

And then I would let them a chance to This is the thing I were talking about earlier,

that maybe it's not quite quitting.

Maybe there is something in their lives.

Maybe there is some personal reason for this.

Hopefully you as a manager have a very good relationship with the person,

a very trust based, transparent relationship where they can open

up and explain what's going on.

And then, I don't want to talk about that now because we're going to go way over

time but that requires different handling.

But if it's quiet quitting, give the feedback, get some commitment from the

person, make it clear the expectations.

That you're not going to make exceptions just because the company is going

through some hard periods because of the team and everything and then get some

commitment from them about changing.

You can be blunt.

You can explain that this can either lead to some change in their behavior

or this will lead to them having to leave the team or the company

because it's not going to work.

Jeremy: Yeah, I think that step about, talk to them Give them feedback.

And this is really crucial.

That secure their commitment to, to change.

Yes.

They need to have a buy, yeah.

And you can't make a plan together after that.

Yeah.

Without securing that commitment.

It's just you forcing someone to do it

Péter: exactly like they should.

This is important.

And this is almost like running a PIP the performance improvement program.

They need to own their own performance and career.

They shouldn't see it like, this is a requirement from my manager.

These are the lists.

That's what I'm gonna know.

They need.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And we said it already, but the number one thing in all of this

is don't over index on one person.

Yeah.

If one person is showing signs of that, I'm sure that the

other everyone's affected.

And especially if someone is in that mode of quiet, quitting negativity

in the spiral, you need to spend time with the rest of the team as well.

In fact, double down and maybe try and extend your one to

ones with everyone in the team.

I know that's really tough.

I know that as a manager right now, you're being told you need to be more hands on,

more in the detail and everything else, and you might over index your one to

ones onto execution topics, but you need to spend time on just the human level.

Your one to one is for those human things.

And we, I know that it's like a tough moment for managers everywhere,

but it's really crucial to, to not, to keep your eye on everyone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Péter: Yeah.

And this is how you can have a bigger impact than yourself, not by.

Taking over some of the coding tasks from your staff engineer who's quiet quitting.

Jeremy: Yeah, exactly.

So let's talk about them.

Okay.

So we're, we are, we're in making a plan with someone, right?

So they are, they're, they want, they say, okay I see it.

Yeah.

What are the levers that manager, let's talk about the levers that managers have,

even in some of the hardest situations.

To actually make a difference in the team for the person and for the team

Péter: I mean we talked a lot about the one on ones and the

discussions and et cetera.

I think another Important aspect is the distribution of work in the team.

You can help the person by finding work that's a bit more motivating for them

that can help them get out of this You shouldn't make exceptions They shouldn't

feel like They are being rewarded for their bad behavior by getting the

juicy, interesting tickets and works.

But with some shaping of distribution of work this can be useful.

The reason of this, and then this is when I want to bring back again, the Daniel

Pink the three great motivators Autonomy Mastery Purpose, is You see a loss in one

of the aspects, usually the purpose, and you can gain back some from another one.

And in this case, it would be the mastery, for example, if you can find an

interesting technological challenge for the person that might trigger something

that brings back their motivation and because it's impacting the mastery.

Jeremy: Yeah.

For me, that's the, this is like the lever that's really in

the wheelhouse of the manager.

When you control it.

The distribution of the work I think you can really you

can really make a difference.

Both I think people need to feel progress in their work.

If they're spinning their wheels, if nothing's happening.

And you're really responsible for making sure that individuals and the

team collectively is feeling progress.

So work is getting done and you can like, manage that and you also manage

the impact of that and translate.

Sometimes that progress is becoming replacement for the

purpose that's maybe missing in the organization wider and so on.

Péter: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You just find it somewhere else.

Another way you can find it is if for example you are working in

a B2C startups, like we have hundreds of thousands of users.

Your work is impacting their lives.

That's a great purpose motivator if you can make it clear to the person

Jeremy: exactly And clearly the other part of progress is still career progress.

Oh, yeah, you know So that's the other that's the other sort of side where

you know, I remember when we're sitting with the team in Traveldoo and we're

looking at the end of the company here and I said, folks like we, we still

have, like you said, we have customers.

We're still, people are still booking travel and doing their expenses with us.

But we're also on this really exciting mission of going, we

were doing a transformation of legacy to modern architecture.

And we're going from, 10 deploys a year to trying to get to, on demand and we

were doing, Five deploys every day.

And we were on that journey.

We did.

And what's really interesting is even after I left the team continued to

progress on that journey knowing that the company knowing the company is

going to end because of the learning and the growth for them and the folks

who embrace that, the folks who embrace that challenge, they've gone on to great

things in the next step in their career.

So I think as a manager you can really create the ingredients for that.

I think and that progress.

Yeah, super important.

Péter: Yeah I think just one more last thing that you can use and you should

use is about Emphasizing the all the good things that are still there that

makes this place a good company and a good team There are a lot of stuff that

we take for granted And don't say it out enough and and that's one thing that you

can do You Need to choose the time well because what I find useful is letting

People just freely vent on one on ones.

This is not the time when I say, okay, but wait We still get I don't know

a great team and a good tech stack and everything No one on these cases.

I think it's important to just let them vent So they have a steam release and

then they can behave better in team aspects But like in a team setting in

a retrospective in a planning meeting, whatever You can emphasize this stuff

like the house of the code base, if it's good, the CI system the, just

the team itself, it's usually yeah, it's usually can be a good motivator.

Jeremy: Yeah, the key thing when you're allowing people to vent and everything

else is not to get sucked in yourself.

Péter: That's very important.

Yeah.

Maybe we can talk a bit like how to handle this, these one on

one conversations really well.

It's almost like a psychologist.

Like you, you want to.

Make the person understand that their feelings are their feelings

and every feeling is valid But you don't want to validate what they are

saying themselves like you don't want to say Oh, yeah, this really sucks.

But you can say I can see you're really frustrated about this.

All right I I can feel that it impacts your morale and strongly empathy.

Exactly.

That's what you're looking for without validation Yeah, because if you start to

validate there is a risk of getting into this negativity spiral And I see it in

a lot of managers especially entry level ones that they think that they need to

be in a good friendship and in a very good personal relationship with their

teams You And they over index in a way that they validate all the negativity

and they start to build this us versus them culture where, okay, this sucks, but

we are against leadership and we still care for the users and show what, I don't

know, do the things that they really need.

And it's just toxic.

It's not leading anywhere.

Jeremy: That's where you lose yourself as a manager and you put yourself in danger

of actually being in a low performance.

True.

Because your job is still to, As a manager, you represent the

company at that level and you're responsible for delivering a result

within that team that's aligned with what the business needs.

So you, you really need to you need to use a careful balance.

So it's really tricky situation.

And we'll talk more, maybe the, self care, we can talk more about that,

but that's a, critical part of this.

I'll just say I think that we talked about empowering staff and all of

this to help them feel progress.

I think the other critical part and lever that you have, and it's a

responsibility is to remove blockers.

It's a critical part of a manager's job is to, when they are

blockers there is to remove them.

And some of them might just be psychological and you can find other

ways around things that may not work, but some of them will require you to take

responsibility beyond the team and so on.

But and it is removing obstacles for your team members is super important

as much as you can, within whatever environment you're operating.

And I recognize that for some managers hearing this, when they look at the

blockers, the team are facing, they may not be able to influence this.

So then, You just have to find other ways to work around them, yeah,

Péter: I think it touches on another important aspect of the role of a

manager is to provide clarity, provide clear information on, on what you can

control, what you cannot control, what we already know and what we explicitly

just don't know and we will see.

Because there are a lot of guessings and rumors and fears and

everything going around in the team.

So you as a manager, you can help a lot tangibly by creating

a more clear environment.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah.

And actually the one to ones is a critical part of that where in all this venting and

whatever, not that every time is venting, but one to one is a fantastic opportunity

to provide context and perspective to people in the one to one context.

You obviously have the team meeting as well and the get togethers, but your

job is really is to try and provide a bridge to, to what's going on around.

The other super critical part of this is.

Providing praise and encouragement for the person as they, as you

work on that plan with them.

Praising, that's probably a whole other topic, but it is people,

for every one negative, it's one negative thing that, or negative

feedback, they need five positives.

So you almost need to be looking for something positive

in each person every day.

Now obviously that but that's the kind of mindset that you need to be on.

What can I say?

To Joe and Jane today and my team about what they're doing.

How can I create this positive environment?

And the positive environment in the team is what will get

you kind of like going in.

You can, it's a bubble and you can, as a line manager, the one thing is

you're far from, of course, there's big things happening in the company.

But at the same time, you can really control that environment

much more than you think into a positive little mini bubble.

Péter: Yeah, exactly.

And I really like the, maybe we will have a separate episode about feedback, but the

whole strengths based feedback framework.

That where you really by praising the behavior you want to see your you're

enforcing it and encouraging it And that's easier to follow so and shows what good

looks like for the rest of the team also.

Jeremy: Yeah, so Get in touch with us if you're facing this scenario if

you have other thoughts, Would really like to hear more from folks on this

and also if you try some of these and if it works, You Nothing encourages

us more than hearing that we're able to help people in, these are very

difficult situations to deal with.

Péter: Yeah, maybe that's, to close it, that's also an important aspect that you

need to realize you cannot save everyone.

Don't make it your life goal that you should bring back

everyone back to an engaged self.

Oftentimes it's better for the company and the person also if they're part,

so they can find a job that's better suiting their needs and their feelings.

Jeremy: Yeah, exactly.

So to summarize,

you have to address it.

It's your job.

Don't be afraid.

And we know that those conversations are hard.

Both of us have some kind of office hours or ways to contact us if

you want to, some encouragement.

You have more control than you think in terms of the bubble that

you can create and what you can do.

Pay attention to the whole team.

Don't forget the rest of the team.

Create a positive environment.

Péter: And then, yeah, don't forget to look after yourself.

This is really hard.

It can impact your mental health.

And Don't be afraid to ask for help.

Maybe we can talk about in a different episode about what are the forms

of that How you can rely on the peer network within and outside

of the company your manager Etc.

So Yeah, this is hard, but you can have a really Tangible

positive impact on people's life if you pay attention to this.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah, exactly

Péter: Nice.

Jeremy: Oh brilliant peter.

And yeah as usual when you're hearing our podcast, you know You Feed the algorithms.

Yeah, like and subscribe.

You can tell we really are cynical about the whole algorithm thing.

Péter: Well, it's a bit tongue in cheek, but to look at it in a more positive

way, liking and subscribing, or what I really like is actually, yeah, let's

talk a bit about this, just a sentence.

I heard it in one of the podcasts at the end that the best way to get creative

work out there is by word of mouse.

So, if you found this useful, send it to someone who you think it can

be useful, send it to your team in the company, a friend, someone.

That's the biggest help you can do to, to spread this.

Yeah,

Jeremy: absolutely.

Well, take care of yourselves and have a great day.