S3:E04 - Letting Someone Go

/ Jeremy: Hi folks.

welcome back to the Retrospective.

this is a podcast where, Peter, my co-host.

Péter: Hey.

Jeremy: and I, Jeremy, we explore, the world of engineering leadership

and engineering management.

and today we're going to be tackling, I think, one of our hardest subjects yet.

probably one of the hardest things that, we've all had to face or

will face in, managing people.

It's something that can give you sleepless nights and

Péter: It was nice.

Jeremy: all sorts of things.

So you Peter, for bringing

Péter: Thank Peter for bringing,

Jeremy: Tell us what we're going to be talking about today.

Yeah.

Péter: we gonna let someone go today.

Uh, it's, uh, you are right.

I, I would even say it's not one of the hardest, it's the hardest thing

a manager needs to do because, you're significantly impacting someone's life

Your role before this point was to create engagement, create good team

dynamics, ensure everyone is belonging and everyone is being taken care of.

And.

For various circumstances that we will discuss in the episode.

You reach a point where you need to remove someone from this

dynamic and it's super hard.

It's very painful for you.

It's even more painful for them potentially.

so this is gonna be a difficult topic.

Jeremy: I

Péter: I would say it's good that it's difficult, dealing with people should

be hard and, and making the decision, and executing the decision that you

let someone go is should be hard.

it's rightfully difficult.

So I thought we should just, go around the aspects of,

Jeremy: what

Péter: What can lead to a termination and, and more importantly, how to handle it.

when it happens, I'm relying on my experience and the

few firings I had to do.

But I expect you, Jeremy, also to chime in with questions and share, your

thoughts so we can keep this, dynamic.

Jeremy: Okay.

Péter: I was thinking about, three parts on this to think about the structure.

Jeremy: first

Péter: first part I wanna talk a bit about, uh,

Jeremy: making the

Péter: the decision, everything that leads up to this, this

decision of, of letting someone go.

Jeremy: second

Péter: second part, um, I, I wanna talk about the conversation itself when

you announce it to the person and all the preparation that you need to do

before you go into a talk like this.

So you, ensure it's, efficient and less painful for everyone and less frustrating.

and then we can talk a little bit about the aftermath.

what happens after you did the talk.

Um, yeah, let's jump into it.

What do you say?

Jeremy: Sounds good to me.

I would say to folks who, you know, if you think that this is challenging and

Péter: Challenging,

Jeremy: hard and

Péter: and hard.

Jeremy: it's probably a sign that you care about

Péter: You care about

Jeremy: that you're a good manager,

Péter: good manager.

Jeremy: You have to actually handle the situation really well.

So hopefully, what we talk about today helps you.

face these situations in a better way.

So

Péter: that's a great

Jeremy: Thanks.

Péter: Thanks for adding that.

the fact that you feel horrible is a good sign when you need to do this.

Jeremy: If you enjoy doing this, you are probably not a great manager.

Péter: Please don't be a manager if you enjoy firing people.

Jeremy: so yeah, let's talk about the decision then, Peter,

Péter: yeah, and I wanna make a disclaimer, like this is a big

topic and I wanna separate, two.

Groups of scenarios based on how much input or how much control you have of

this decision, because there is a big.

Area of layoffs, or terminations, decided way above your managerial level.

When, when I say you, I mean our listeners, the line managers, engineering

managers or managers listening to us.

So if it's a company-wide layoff, if it's a closing of a department, you

have less control on the decision.

So Because of this, I wanna focus on areas where you have more control

because, I think advice there can influence the impact you have on

the person and on the situation.

But still, I think even if you're executing a layoff, there are some

advices that you can find useful in the talk part, because either way,

you will need to talk with the person.

Jeremy: Yeah, I think the lead up the decision is very different in a layoff

'cause you may or may not be involved in the decision about who, uh, uh, and so on.

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: it's a very different process to arrive at this conversation, between

a downsizing, layoff, restructuring, compared to, performance based,

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: of someone.

Péter: Yeah.

And actually this is a good segue to, to one of my first points

about making the decision that.

Ideally, this should be a very long process if it's a

performance based termination.

And this is a big difference with layoffs.

'cause layoffs usually come seemingly out of the blue.

Like, a lot of the layoffs are for various reasons that I don't want to

get into, but they are executed in a way that, it's surprisingly fast for people

who were not involved in the decision.

Um.

Jeremy: on the country that you're in,

Péter: Yes.

And, and, uh, this is a good disclaimer.

This, this episode is gonna be full of disclaimers, but, because fortunately

we have an international audience, there are areas where we cannot really give.

Jeremy: practical.

Péter: local advice because, different jurisdictions have different

labor laws and, some require more strict documentation processes.

Some require, as you say, a bigger of a notice in, in layoffs or even negotiations

with some unions or government entities.

And, and there are a lot of differences.

But I wanna focus on the perfor, performance based, Termination

because I think our listeners, like a first time manager.

This is what they struggle with the most.

how to spot if somebody's underperforming and how to, how to fire them, basically

Jeremy: Peter, You said that you feel like

Péter: set that.

Jeremy: at the end of a long, process, but what do you mean by long?

Like how long is long?

is that years.

Months,

Péter: no, no.

I didn't,

Jeremy: Like

Péter: well,

Jeremy: you say long, what does that mean?

Péter: in my mind, when I say long and this is just a gut number or

like a thumb rule, I would say like a quarter, something like this,

that's, I think like three months is probably a, fair estimations by long.

I rather meant something like.

It's not a surprise for the employee that we reach this point, because this process,

if it's a, and, and from now on when I talk about firing someone, I'm gonna

talk about this performance based aspect.

And ideally, they get a lot of early warning signs.

They get a lot of support from you, from the manager or peers, to.

Try to close the performance gap and perform according to expectations.

We tried everything, what we could, and I will talk a bit about what we

should try, and then we reached the point where we figured that is just.

Doesn't work dragging on too long.

But you're right that, like where your question is leading is something

that I see often, especially in less experienced managers, is that they are

dragging out this process too long.

and that's definitely a big risk.

Mainly it's, no, I wanna step back.

My theory is that under performers have a bigger impact than just their own scope.

They impact the team and they impact the organization also.

and the longer this impact, drags on the bigger it is,

Not just directly, that less work is getting done and others need to pull

more than their weight to keep up.

But more importantly, they impact the organization because they show

what is expected by management.

They show that under performance or bad behaviors are tolerated.

And this lowers the bar of expectations for everyone I saw in,

in an organization that this, um.

The failure of management of handling under performance in a timely manner.

This led to chasing away high performers because they saw

that, oh, this organization tolerates this kind of behavior.

I don't wanna work here anymore.

It's just doesn't work for me.

So, definitely don't drag it too long.

my point was more about.

Don't make it a surprise for the employee.

Give a lot of early and increasingly serious warnings to the employee that

there are issues with their performance.

Jeremy: I think that's the key part of this is you end up in

the actual conversation, nobody should be surprised, you know?

Péter: Yes.

Jeremy: and That the employee should be fully aware of the consequences

of not being able to change the turn around the situation, that it

goes in a particular, direction.

Um, okay.

Péter: but we are still making the decision.

We are not in the conversation yet.

I strongly believe in the SBI framework, the situation behavior impact framework.

this is about giving feedback, which is a topic that could justify its own episode.

in brief, it means that you describe a situation, where

the under underperformance happened or the bad behavior.

you describe the situation, you describe the behavior of the person

and you show them its impact.

For example, the developer was launching a new microservice,

They neglected the, company enforce documentation about the

minimum requirements for a new microservice around observability.

And the impact was that, uh, because we didn't have monitoring on this service,

when it went down, it caused an outage.

and we only saw it after four hours.

I don't know.

Uh.

The, the point of the SBI framework is that it's very objective and, uh,

it gives a very concrete help to the person to see what exactly was the

problem and why it was a problem.

So they are well equipped to address the problem and, try to improve.

Jeremy: And,

Péter: and when to give this feedback.

I say as soon as it makes sense.

I believe in weekly one-on-ones, with managers and employees.

I hear a lot of managers saying, I don't have time for one-on-ones, or I

don't have time for weekly one-on-ones.

that's you're shooting yourself on the on, on the foot if

you deprioritize one-on-ones.

I don't wanna get too deep into this, but, you ideally have regular one-on-ones with

the person, but even if not, just schedule a quick catch up call or grab them for a

discussion in an office setting the reason for keeping it close to the event is

that it's recent so the person can still

Jeremy: Yeah,

Péter: why you're giving this feedback.

Jeremy: actually say don't wait for your one-to-one to give

feedback when something happens.

Pull them aside privately in somewhere.

Don't do it in front of anyone else.

Give them the feedback then and there.

The one-to-ones are more when you're addressing the, macro view, the

zoomed out view, their progress on their career, they're struggling

to do their tasks or whatever.

You can dive deeper into.

the coaching or mentoring approaches that you can apply to that.

certainly the one-to-ones at a certain point, you need to have

documented written feedback.

feedback isn't just verbal in, these kind of cases where there's repeated

long, long term, like several months of under performance, especially

when it's not related to personal situations and things like that.

The one-to-one is where you can uncover if it's related to a personal situation.

The one-to-one is also where you follow up in writing because sometimes people

don't fully get what you say, but you can be very articulate in the writing

regardless of your jurisdiction, because in some countries you should do it

in writing and just a little point.

For example, even if you do it in writing in France, you should do it.

Also in French, if

Péter: Oh no, really.

Jeremy: you do.

Yeah.

So like, just make sure you understand.

Yeah.

Make sure you understand those written notes are very important on like the,

the rules of the country and so on.

So you need to know all the legal, requirements of it.

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: the good news is that you have a lot of tools available to you now I think

that make it a lot easier to do that.

But, I would basically maintain some kind of shared document with your employee

where you have your agenda for your one-to-one, your notes, and, certainly

where you're in a performance situation.

Then you need to have very structured notes.

And I think as a manager, this is also something you cannot afford to.

doing this kind of high touch with someone for a super long period of time.

Not only does a low performance impact the other members of your team, it

impacts you, impacts your ability to support high performers in your team.

Péter: Oh, there were a lot of good thoughts in that.

Thank you for adding all, the immediate feedback and doing it privately.

It's also very wise advice.

Jeremy: I would

Péter: I would say, what I typically see in less experienced managers

is the trap of benefit of doubt.

Like when they see some under performance, they choke it up to some

personal reasons, or they say that, oh, they're gonna do better next week.

It's just a little misstep, and oftentimes it is, but still you need to.

Take this opportunity to give early feedback so the person has

more chances to correct behavior.

You don't give a chance to the bad behavior to solidify and become the norm.

Jeremy: Yeah,

Péter: yeah, early, direct, obvious feedback.

Jeremy: I think all of us fall into the benefit of doubt trap, no matter

Péter: mm-hmm.

Jeremy: you are, but the big crime is not giving the feedback.

Péter: Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

And you are not signing their desk note.

Uh, it is just what it is.

It's a feedback about the concrete behavior and, to help them get

out of this, like help them understand better what's expected.

But these feedbacks, they should be increasingly.

Severe and, and there should, as you said, they might not understand it the

same way as you intended to say it.

So you should be explicit about where this pass is leading, saying, maybe not

on the first one, but on the second, third one, depending on the gravity of

the situation that this is a serious performance issue, this can lead to,

performance management and if that.

if the person cannot change their behavior, it can lead to separation

so they understand the consequences 'cause I sometimes I heard that, oh

yeah, he told me that, but I thought it's just his opinion, or something

like this and, it should be clear.

why are you giving the feedback

Jeremy: I think that's impact.

Part of SBI, the impact should be very clear that your impact was this,

but we also can't continue to support this kind of if you continue, this

can lead to other consequences even

Péter: Yeah,

Jeremy: as far as losing your job here.

Péter: I mean, I wouldn't start with this on the first feedback, but if somebody

does repeat it stuff, then definitely.

Jeremy: point, the impact is going to go up.

Péter: yeah, and there's a point where you reach the point of the famous

performance improvement plan, let's talk a bit about what is the PIP for, for,

for people who, who didn't do it yet.

it's a structured, documented approach as a last resort to try.

To improve somebody's performance.

Uh, and there is importance in every aspect.

That's why I said it slowly.

'cause I was thinking about not missing anything.

It's structured because it follows a very clear structures, it

has goals or expectations that the person needs to deliver.

It has a timeline by when they need to deliver.

It has checkpoints.

It's, it's in writing.

That's super important because you're at a point where.

Jeremy: I

Péter: I would say regardless of legislation or country, you need some

concrete proof of, of, under performance.

And,

Jeremy: yeah.

Péter: yeah, the War Inc. Has a, has a timeline on it.

'cause usually this take like, I don't know, two weeks, three weeks,

one month, definitely not longer.

the goal is to give a last resort or the last chance of, of, of the person to help.

Now a lot of companies use the peep as, I. I, there's a funny

resolution of the abbreviation that calls like paid interview period.

Yeah.

and, and some, some take it like that.

Even companies, like, there are companies who, if you're on a pip,

you that's, that's your way out.

That's like that.

Jeremy: Street.

Péter: Yeah.

It's a one way And I hate it.

'cause that's lying.

that's charade.

I tell my managers that.

Put a person on the peep if you believe that they can make it and behave

during the pip, like make sure you really believe in them and, that's

the way you can honestly support them.

The way I approach this, the goal is not to, just document their

mistakes so you can fire them easily.

The goal is to improve their performance.

that's how I like to look at Pips.

Jeremy: I have a couple thoughts on this.

The first thought is I, I, I think I agree with you that can't manage people if you

don't care about them, and you genuinely want to help them succeed, and you are

invested in creating the conditions for their success and a pip is, is, is a very

structured way to help someone understand.

What is the basic behaviors that they need to do to be successful

or get to the basic level of what good looks like for their role.

Um, thought on it, that is that the definitely has some very clear

milestones, while it might be set.

For, can, let's say four weeks or something like that.

think if people are failing the PIP and early on, I think you can, it depending

on, on the jurisdiction and so on, you may be able to end it sooner because

you don't have to go all the way.

if there So it doesn't have to be a super long paid interview period.

It can be very much focused on, Hey, you know what?

Last week you didn't make it.

If you don't make it this week, I think it could be over.

and then I think just to your comments about,

Péter: Hear comments about

Jeremy: people to succeed and so you give them a pip, that's not always the

Péter: that's not.

Jeremy: In some places in the world, forced to do a pip to be able to

have the final conversation that we're gonna talk about in a second.

For example, in the uk, after you've worked for two years, you have to go

through this kind of a structured process.

If it's less than two years, you can fairly easily let someone go.

and in France for any job, you have to go through a lot of hoops to let someone go.

in the US you don't have to do any of this and everyone's at will, and you can

just have the conversation they can walk out the door and they can do that too.

They can leave in the same way.

So I think.

always, work with the HR team.

you're never gonna be putting someone in a PIP on your own.

That

Péter: Oh yeah.

No, no.

Please don't do.

Jeremy: you can't, you can't actually.

A PIP is something you do with hr.

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: yeah.

Péter: Yeah, yeah.

and any advice we can give, maybe you can just flush them down the toilet.

If you have opposite advice from the hr. 'cause they call the shots

in your company and they take the legal responsibility also.

What kind of advice they're giving you.

I just wanted to add that, it happens often.

Well, maybe not often, but it happens that, the person doesn't wanna go

through the pip, and it's their right to refuse the pip and say,

okay, I just, I, I, I wanna quit.

Then let's find a mutual agreement.

I don't wanna go through the.

Awkward and sometimes humiliating process over pip, and correct me if I'm wrong,

but I think this is, yeah, this should be the case for even countries that have a

strong documentation requirement because at this point it's a mutual agreement of

termination so that there are not many.

Jeremy: and by the way, this is the interesting or important thing I wanted

to call out is, to your point again about wanting people to succeed on a pip.

you know, deep down this person, it's just a formal process to go to the end.

Start with a proposal

Péter: Proposal.

Yes.

Jeremy: that we're about to talk about, have that earlier and just say, listen,

I think we're coming to the end of the road, et cetera, where, you know, like

you have the conversation a different way.

Offer them the separation and say otherwise, we're gonna have

to go down this other path and it may result in the same thing.

You know, the difference for an employee is mutual separation may

give them a better deal than if they

Péter: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: just terminated, their

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: So I think, I would just save everybody a lot of time if you think

it's not working for someone to find a way work with the HR to just go

for the mutual separation upfront.

Péter: Yeah, I totally agree.

and this is actually the solution to my dilemma about having to do a

pip when you don't believe in it.

This is how you can keep your character and be, a transparent person like coming

through in the beginning saying that.

Honestly, I think the performance gap is so big that I would be surprised

if you could make it in such a short time, but I want to give you a chance.

But also if you agree, then there is this other pass.

Jeremy: And I would, and, and just on this, are not gonna have this conversation

yourself, uh, without either an HR person,

Péter: Yes.

Jeremy: Advising you or even maybe handling the conversation.

But I,

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: if the person does say, I, no, I wanna stay, then be extra cautious.

Work very, very closely with hr. You know, you're almost

in constant contact with them.

It's gonna be an onerous thing, uh, to handle.

But, uh, yeah.

Péter: Yeah, I mean, you need to stay a good manager and a good person,

but you also, part of your job is to protect the interest of the company.

and this can, depending on what you say especially or what you put in writing,

you can open room for litigation But I think we went a bit away from the subject.

These are very important points and thanks for adding the very

important role of HR in this process.

but let's move on to the conversation.

I think, just to summarize, You made a decision, you want

to terminate this person.

there is no other way around.

You're just gonna need to sit down with them and tell them that

they don't have a work anymore.

well first of all, I want to acknowledge that this sucks.

as you said in the beginning, this is real difficult and it's really hard.

Jeremy: But

Péter: But it's probably much harder on the other person.

So one of the traps for less experienced managers is making this too much about

themselves and not about the other person.

And this can manifest in a lot of ways, like having difficulty staying composed in

the talk or trying to be overly defensive and argumentative about explaining the

reasons or, or a lot of other ways.

No, this, this is hard.

and you should have all the help.

you should, acknowledge your feelings and expect your feelings.

But this is about the other person who you are, firing now.

Jeremy: At this stage, I think this is not a long conversation.

Péter: No, no.

Yeah.

Let's talk about the preparation.

you're right.

there are a few things that, worked out well for me and I think are good

knowledge is that, you need to know all the reasons why you're terminating.

don't start to.

Come up with ideas on the spot.

definitely talk with HR and your manager about all the technicalities,

like notice period, severance package, what happens with stock

options, what happens with healthcare coverage, all these important aspects.

So you're not surprised about their questions, which will

probably come and, uh, as you said.

This is usually not a long call.

once you made the decision you shouldn't drag on any longer, you made the decision.

Try to make the call as soon as possible because you can keep

secrets, but it's gonna be visible on you if you gave up on the person.

just schedule it very, very shortly.

don't disturb them on their vacation, for example.

Like if you made the decision while they are out, please

don't call them on the vacation.

let them enjoy it, as much as they can because probably they see it coming.

Don't send a schedule on Friday for a Monday morning because

you're screwing their weekend.

Just do an ad hoc call even, or grab them and say, do you have 10 minutes?

We need to talk.

Go to a very private place, either a one-on-one call where both of you are

in a private place or a private meeting room where people cannot see inside.

and yeah, that's when you do the talk.

Jeremy: I think that's it.

It's, yes, be prepared, even maintain empathy for that other person in how you,

Péter: Yeah,

Jeremy: schedule and line everything up.

Péter: there is a useful mindset that I tell people who are struggling

with this, that, firing someone.

It doesn't mean that they suck it, it doesn't even mean

that they suck at this job.

It means that you couldn't give them a job that's appropriate for them.

In fact, almost you failed in giving the job or hiring them or managing

them and everything through it.

it's a reverse mindset, and it helps resolve this

Jeremy: Yeah,

Péter: inconvenience about telling someone that they failed.

Jeremy: it's, I'm sorry that the, compatibility, the way that this

company works and what we expect from people is not a good fit.

there's something else about this, which is as you prepare you have your reasons.

the most damaging thing you can do, and some of the regrets I have of having

done this badly or seen it done badly in orgs that I've been part of is where you

make something up that's not entirely fair or true as part of your reasons.

and I think that can often.

Come out specifically, in a layoff situation, which is more of a surprise.

Péter: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: I mean this conversation in the end, you can arrive at it

much faster in a layoff situation.

I think it's just, better to say less than to say too much or too much

of the wrong thing, I don't know.

Yeah.

Péter: Yeah.

No, you're, you're, that's, that's a very good point.

Like if, for example, if you have the gut feeling that you just

cannot work with this person because the way they behave, the way they

talk with others is, unacceptable.

Say that don't come up with technical things, don't come up with other excuses.

stay true to yourself because this is how you help the person to show what

was the exact problem with the behavior.

Jeremy: we've scheduled the meeting.

Péter: yeah.

Jeremy: we handle

Péter: yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Péter: Yeah, I mean.

Just like rip the bandaid off, have a one sentence prepared, something

like, I'm sorry to inform you that your employment is terminated at this company,

or We don't have a job for you anymore.

don't go overly explaining as we talked about it before, it shouldn't

be a surprise for the person still, it's gonna be for some, but, say

very briefly the performance reasons.

And then, just give them a little bit of time to process, say the technicalities.

They can have various reactions.

Some people I see were shocked and, . Definitely some people

are gonna be emotional.

Uh, you can be emotional.

Try to stay composed.

But, this is a very emotional discussion.

you can expect, negotiation attempts.

Something like, oh my God, I didn't know it's that serious.

Give me another chance.

I was going through a divorce and it's over now and I'm in a better shape.

Please help me.

Jeremy: suddenly they come out with some personal thing that they didn't tell you

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Péter: Yeah.

or even if you knew about this, like sometimes you really wanna emphasize

like you're emphasizing with the person.

Maybe they're in a shitty situation.

But the important thing is if you are not a hundred percent sure in your

decision, then don't go into the talk, the point when you're doing the talk.

all discussions.

All options are out.

There is literally nothing you can hear at this point that should change your mind.

so if the person is in a bad situation, figure out if you can

give them some slack for a week or two, before doing the decision.

At this point, the decision is made.

But oftentimes they just react being quiet and sad and processing.

And this is normal.

give them some time.

You can offer, offer the, I mean, after telling the details about, the

separation notice period, everything you can offer them to leave.

That's why it's good to schedule this course around the end of the

workday or even Friday afternoons.

I don't know if, if the company allows, allow them to take a cab

for company coast because maybe they are not fit to do public transport.

I don't know.

Uh, there, there can be a lot of reactions.

I guess the main point is, as you said, be empath, but, don't, don't

open any rooms for, for negotiation.

Like make it a hundred percent clear that this is a done deal.

Jeremy: it's basically just don't get dragged back into,

Péter: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or, or I can give you some time to process and we can go through these

tomorrow or next week, or whatever.

Yeah.

Jeremy: say that.

I would say, okay, I know this is really hard for you now, what I can

do is I can walk you through the next steps and I'll, send some of

this in writing to you as well, that,

Péter: point.

Jeremy: gonna, I'm not gonna go back and forward on this.

it's, this is the last meeting after it's a handoff to HR and, that's it, you know.

Péter: That's fair.

No, you're right.

that can be things that you cannot answer on the spot, especially if you didn't

do all your homework in preparation.

But maybe there are something like they have a complicated question about vesting,

period for their options or something.

Jeremy: we

Péter: Commit to follow up and, yeah, yeah,

Jeremy: but that's, that's

Péter: yeah, Don't apologize.

That's one of the things that can happen in, in, especially in layoff situations.

if you use the mindset that it was not their fault, it was

the job that you offered them, still you are not apologizing.

It gives them a disservice because it leaves a little bit of doubt in their

heads that maybe this could be changed.

it's harder to gain closure in this situation if you're at

the other side of the table, if the person is too apologizing

Jeremy: Also.

Péter: and also don't be defensive.

Like this is not the point where you need to.

Argue and prove, uh, your, your decision, your role as a

manager is to make decisions.

You made a decision.

you made the decision based on everything that you worked on

in the last few weeks or months.

Jeremy: think

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: this is not a long conversation.

This is like

Péter: No.

Jeremy: 10 minutes.

there's no, as you say, it's ripping a bandaid off.

there's empathy in your voice.

The main thing I would say beyond preparing.

In terms of like the, all the facts and, and, and your script

and what you're gonna say.

actually feeling empathy inside yourself for the other person and

how you deliver the, the words.

if you're feeling inside yourself, like this goes back to radical

candor and, their approach to like how you're seeing a person.

If that's there, I think

Péter: That's there.

I think that's comfortable.

Jeremy: a fairly scripted, delivery of what you're going to do.

Péter: Yes.

No, no, you're totally right.

And I thank you for mentioning one of my favorite books on giving feedback

to people and talking with people.

Jeremy: So you

Péter: So you had the conversation.

what happens after?

I wanna talk briefly about a few aspects, especially regarding the team.

I like to give.

Especially if it's not a brutal case, like gross misconduct

or, some even criminal cases.

We didn't talk about that, but those are more straightforward.

But usually I like to give the person some kind of control in how the

announcement goes to the immediate team.

I like to let them, decide how they prefer, and I can do some

adjusting, in my plans, but.

the same thing is true.

Don't drag it too long.

make it quick.

being in this limbo is impacting the team and the morale.

everyone stick to the facts.

if you're doing the announcement, Don't go into performance details.

You need to protect the privacy of the person.

And nobody likes to be advertised how they're failed in in various suspects.

If it was a performance based issue, probably the rest of the team also suspect

'cause they saw the person performing.

But if somebody insist, you can say that you would protect their privacy also.

So you're not gonna go into details.

It's also important to address that this is not a part of an organized layoff.

Uh,

Jeremy: I think there's two parts to this.

There's agreeing a message with the person, in preserving their

dignity, not dragging them through, you know, I fired them 'cause they

were useless, et cetera, et cetera.

But I do

Péter: Of.

Jeremy: there's, there's two levels of communication.

There's a communication that you need to, you often have like some kind of

communication to managers and they say, just want to let all the managers

know, this person will be believing us.

It's probably a private communication, in there.

I think you should be very clear.

separated because we've been working on their performance for a number of months.

It hasn't improved and so we are separating with this person.

I think that managers need to understand that there's a performance

culture in this organization.

Péter: You mean this is for the manager's, message.

Definitely.

Jeremy: to their team, but it's for managers to

Péter: No, no.

I agree.

Jeremy: But then obviously within the team, you want to have a more public

communication with say, on like this person's contribution, tenure and so on.

You want something.

At the end, it, it, it might just be super short.

I just wanna let you know, so-and-so's leaving.

is the end date.

Here's the

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: it might be longer depending on their role and everything else, but, you

need to communicate timeline and impact.

And, my personal view is that you should always communicate when someone's leaving.

I think the worst is when people leave without any acknowledgement.

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: before you communicate.

Have your plan of what you're doing when, like what's the next step?

Like how are we covering, their departure?

inside the team or in a, you know, whatever, like have a plan, communicate

part of it, or say interim period.

This is what's happening.

I will communicate a follow up when we have a better idea.

in my opinion, the communications happened super quick.

you may agree with that person.

You're gonna tell a couple people this morning and I'm gonna send

out a message this afternoon.

Um, or, oh, actually, you know, you've been here for a little

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: Maybe, you know, you are gonna send out a message, and we agree what

that message is, and then you post it.

definitely loop in the

Péter: Yeah, but your point is that this is part of the preparation.

Actually.

you do this before the talk.

You already have the message, everything, so you can execute

this very briefly on the process.

You need to ensure knowledge transfer and see how it impacts your commitments

on the planning, so others relying on your team can count with something.

It's okay not to have all the answers.

You just need to be, reliable.

and I think that's it.

anything I missed?

Jeremy: well, there's so much more, and we probably have a

Péter: yeah.

Jeremy: of other

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: I think we mixed the layoff with the performance, conversation,

the final performance conversation.

we should probably talk about the feedback part and all

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: do you wanna summarize this in one sentence for us, Peter?

Péter: Uh, whew.

Jeremy: Uh,

Péter: I, I, I like the saying that, hire slow fire fest.

Jeremy: are a

Péter: there are a lot of stuff I could say that are not sure with it,

especially on the hiring part maybe.

Jeremy: but

Péter: but this is the deal, like you have an urge inside.

To oversee some mistakes because you want to avoid the conflict and avoid the

awkwardness and avoid the, the hard parts.

Don't do it come to a conclusion and execute it humanely and, as much

staying as a good manager as you can.

Jeremy: Well thanks for this topic.

Peter, it's, I think it's,

Péter: comments.

Thank you.

Jeremy: Yeah, sometimes we like to have our little disagreements

Péter: Disagreement.

Jeremy: to this,

Péter: Yeah.

Jeremy: oh, brilliant.

thank you folks for listening.

You know, hit the buttons that whatever feeds, whatever, uh, algorithms

out there, it always helps us.

But ultimately what we care about is that you get some value

and if you know someone that.

Might be going through, something like this.

Please do share, this with them.

Thank you.

Péter: Thank you all.

Talk to you soon or hear you soon, or talk to you soon.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Péter: Take care.

Bye.